Comments on: Chaz on Rye…how unkosher should a deli be?

By: Dan Estridge

Dan Estridge — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:42:32 +0000

I love Save The Deli - but I have to differ.
For me, the question in deli as in all things Noshstalgic is authenticity. Deep comprehension and fidelity to the essence of a thing. It seems to me the question is not what should be permitted - but rather what is the context, the intent, the effect. If you happen upon an avowed deli offering cheese steaks and pastrami subs - you’re not likely to be surprised that they’re not offering chopped liver. You will already have relegated the place to the “sandwich shop” category. You will know it is not a deli no matter what the sign out front says.

I once wrote a post at my blog about cheese shops that began by considering the supermarket with the big letters saying “Cheese Shop” on the front of the building. Nobody’s fooled.

On the other hand, if you were to find a place that did a great job on all things deli, not phoning it in - but really doing it. Making pickles that took you back. Creating their own meats - or at least buying the best and treating it properly. etc. - and they also happened to be (let’s say) first generation Alsatian Jewish immigrants who couldn’t resist offering a really first rate choucroute - smoked pork and all? What’s a mother to do? These are great people turning out great food. Should we disqualify them? Invalidate their achievement? I wouldn’t.

By: extramsg

extramsg — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 04:12:04 +0000

I guess I mostly agree with Dan.

However, for our deli we’ve drawn the line at pork and shellfish. There won’t be any. We will have cheese and dairy, though.

I more understand the complaint about cheese on deli sandwiches than a strict prohibition on dairy since by-and-large the modern deli is more about having traditional Jewish foods than having kosher foods. So, the two separate types of foods — the appetizers and the delicacies — get combined on one menu so you get places serving whitefish salad, sable, bagels, lox, etc, along with pastrami, corned beef, tongue, knishes, etc.

And frankly, the reuben, especially the pastrami reuben, is the best sandwich ever invented, imo, and for any non-kosher deli to skip it would just be sad.

I totally respect a deli that remains kosher or an appetizing store that sticks strictly to fish and dairy. But it’s not very necessary or feasible in modern America.

But pork and shellfish just seem wholly out of place and unnecessary in a deli. The only call for it is bacon for breakfast items at a deli that serves breakfast. But pastrami is essentially beef bacon. That’s how we use it in our breakfast dishes, as bacon/ham alternative. So, eg, we do a pastrami benedict that’s pretty damned tasty, but does mix meat and dairy.

By: DrBehavior

DrBehavior — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 04:13:32 +0000

I was just sitting here in the midst of making up names for items on my new taste-testing menu when I checked my e-mail. Somehow, when I read the words, ‘treyf’, Ham, and seafood along with Kosher-style and Deli it seemed as if ‘juxt a position of incongruous elements’ had streaked across my page and, frankly, upset my stomach.
I’m just on the verge of launching my own, very small, specialty catering business here in Northern California. The whole premise of my undertaking is based on the concept of the ‘old fashion, kosher-style’ Deli. I couldn’t even bring myself to write the names of products on my forthcoming menu that strayed very far from what the good old mashgiach would have approved of, at least in spirit.

By: Jason Perlow

Jason Perlow — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 13:37:59 +0000

I am both torn by tradition and by the practicalities of running restaurants in this day and age, and the tastes of modern Jewish Americans. I think its ok for a Delicatessen to offer items that violate halachical or kashrs principles on the menu provided that the quality levels are being up. So, reubens, cheesesteaks, no problem, as long as they are sterling examples. Katz’s certainly does a very good job with this as does the Carnegie. Now, actual forbidden Trayf items? Ham? Bacon? Shrimp? That’s probably going a bit too far. However not every town is New York City — in a place like New Orleans, Atlanta or Florida, it might totally be cool do do something like that with the community down there. Case in point, places like TooJay’s in Florida, which are perfectly comfortable offering Bacon and Cheese omelettes and Bacon Cheese Burgers alongside Matzo Ball Soup and Pastramis on Rye. Although to their credit, they don’t offer Shrimp, Ham or Shellfish. I guess Bacon is one of those treyf items that modern Jews will let slide, but “Ham” is just too close to the vest gentile to be permitted on a deli menu. We are a wacky culture.

http://www.toojays.com/menus/

The true Kosher deli, however, should be protected because I think there should always be one.

By: extramsg

extramsg — Mon, 27 Aug 2007 06:39:17 +0000

Jason, have you checked out the NY deli menus, though? I have quite a collection and bacon and ham are prevalent. Perhaps not in Queens or Brooklyn, but certainly in Manhattan.

Carnegie has ham and bacon for breakfast items. They have BLTs, club sandwiches, and ham sandwiches. Stage is the same. Sarge’s is the same. Katz’s seems to be the exception, not the rule, when it comes to the bigger full-service delis (as opposed to smaller places like Pastrami Queen).

By: julia s

julia s — Mon, 27 Aug 2007 22:10:24 +0000

I must say I agree with David on this one. Being Canadian, however, the Reuben has never become part of our deli culture, and therefore our deli does not mix up the milk and the meat. That being said, I often go to the deli for cheese bagelach, blintzes, etc., while others are busy eating smoked meat sandwiches!